RPG Roundtable #2, Part Three

Part three of RPGVault’s second RPG Roundtable feature is available, with comments from LucasArts’ Mike Gallo, Obsidian Entertainment’s Chris Avellone, Gas Powered Games’ Steve Wartofsky, and more. This time, they continue to discuss character development in RPGs. Check it out:

There is a broad audience of people out there that play certain RPGs, and a game that gets too bogged down in stats and numbers may scare a lot of people away. So, it is that intricate plot and story that really keep people involved and motivated to get through the game. I would love to see how many people picked up Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and completed it versus the number of people who just playing it for a few hours. I hope that if our work paid off in the ways we intended, the finish rate would be higher than average.

As the original source of the roundtable is no longer online, we’ve reproduced it here for posterity’s sake:

RPG Roundtable #2, Part 3

Having seen all the initial comments, many of the panel return for the open discussion on character development.

September 19, 2003 – There can be no doubt whatsoever that the CRPG genre occupies a place of significant importance in the history of the game development industry. Whenever any publication produces an all-time best list, it’s readily apparent that during the past two and a half decades or so, the category has spawned a substantial number of excellent individual titles as well as a disproportionate share of exceptional and long-running series. It has also nurtured the creativity and talent of countless game makers, including a goodly number whose names are frequently seen associated with laudatory appellations such as legend and visionary. And if that weren’t enough, it’s abundantly clear that the impact of the CRPGs has reached into other genres. Indeed, the continuing profusion of titles touting the incorporation of RPG elements suggests that the degree of such influence is still growing.

Some time ago, we started up a terrific series of features that we call Online World Roundtables. The format we came up with brings together a panel of developers, who are then asked to provide their thoughts on a particular subject that affects or at least interests them. There are two stages, the first for initial statements, then one for open discussion. The composition of the participating group changes from one session to the next, as does the specific topic, making for a rich, diverse array of expert opinions. It was evident from the beginning that this type of feature was equally suited to addressing the wide, diverse assortment of issues and questions related to standalone CRPGs. As a result, we initiated a parallel series of RPG Roundtables. In this one, we’re looking at character development, concluding with this open discussion.

Chris Avellone
Designer, Obsidian Entertainment
Unannounced project
I tend to agree with the responses that CRPGs have relied too heavily on pen and paper elements, which I think are fine when sitting around a table, but playing a computer role-playing game has an entirely different element about it, and a great many things about pen and paper games just aren’t as much fun when you’re sitting in front of the monitor. Here’s a selection of stats I have grown to hate:

(Note: I would add the Halfling race to the list of stats and classifications I hate below [if it’s not a hobbit, then drop it already], but I see where Brent Knowles is coming from, and I’m sure there are plenty of fans out there who would like to play a Frodo archetype as a character. And as a GM, I would love to kill those characters.)

Hit Points
Armor Class
Gold and Gold Pieces (which I would argue is a stat)
Spell Level

Speaking of that last classification, let me rant about spells for a while, since it’s tangentially related to character development – basically, almost every spell system I have encountered in an RPG has done wonders for sucking all the mystery and enjoyment out of magic. Each one of them is basically “here’s how much damage it does, and here’s the type of damage it does.” Maybe, in an exciting twist, the spell paralyzes the opponent for a while. Or stuns them. But everybody knows what a Fireball spell does now, and instead of being a source of wonder, it is now officially a dirty old whore of a spell.

Long story short, I know as far as character development goes, I wouldn’t mind seeing other avenues of magic explored that are not solely designed to buff your character and destroy an enemy… anything to give magic that element of mystery and exploration. Spells that commune with spirits, provide psychometry of objects, or anything that goes beyond “3-18+2 Electrical in a two meter radius.” Spells that make you wonder what the hell they’re going to DO when you let them fly.

But back to numbers and stats in RPGs. They’re an easy way to track progress. I don’t really blame CRPGs for using the stats above; I think a lot of the stats placement has to do with the roots of D&D; itself – it came from Chain Mail, a wargame, and that’s what D&D; is – a close quarters wargame in a dungeon-like environment. Regardless of origins, numbers and stats are an easily definable way to say either “I am winning,” or “I am a badass.” “I got three more gold coins, which raises my gold so therefore I’m making progress.” “I have +3 to hit now instead of +1.” The thing is, this turns most CRPGs into mini-RTS (or Warcraft, which is going in the opposite direction by trying to be increasingly more like an RPG). It just gets tiresome to see numbers as the only focus for an RPG – I’d like to see more personality aspects, or anything that will give the game some feeling beyond the numbers and still allows you to feel like you’re advancing your character and making progress.

Jeff Vogel
Spiderweb Software
Geneforge, Avernum et al
Wow. I had no idea my genre had such a self-esteem problem. It seemed like every answer but mine was some variety of “Yeah, people like what we make, but I hate it, and I’m going to be the one to fix it.” I know my company is just a wee, little, cute one, but I can’t be the only person who looks at RPG now and goes “Yeah. Sure. Rock on!”

The whole push for less number and more story in RPGs has always seemed to me to be a quest to most effectively fool the user. We’re writing computer games. A computer sees everything as a clump of numbers and a logic tree. Thus, RPGs are basically aggregations of number clumps and logic trees.

If you tweak the logic tree enough and slap some pretty prose in the right place, you can occasionally, for brief moments, create the illusion of a real, three-dimensional, immersive experience. And then it’s back to “You got 780 xp and the +2 sword.” And until some kid at MIT with a brain the size of a casaba melon comes up with something like a real AI, this is the best case scenario.

Though, I feel the need to point out, I already play a highly immersive RPG where I interact with fully believable people. It’s called EverQuest. When I chat-chat with a couple dozen actual humans about how much the new Matrix movies suck while we’re setting up the heal chain to kill Interchangeable Dragon #37, I feel immersed. I know I am interacting with real, complicated characters. And I am happy.

Alexander Mishulin
Lead Game Designer, Silent Storm
Nival Interactive
Pen and paper RPGs long ago prompted a question that quickly transferred itself after the introduction of the first computer-based ones, “Which is the better system, skill-based or class-based?” We have yet to find an answer, as it seems there will always be adherents to one position or the other. For game development though, this is actually good, as it allows us one more way in which to differentiate one title from another. For me, however, a far more intriguing question is whether the player should have complete freedom in developing his character within the framework of both skill-based and class-based, or is it necessary to limit and control development?

The first approach, absolute freedom, is more attractive for the player, especially hardcore ones. A character developed by an experienced gamer, however, can easily overpower those created by less serious players. This creates balance and difficulty problems in the game where, for a hardcore player, the game may be too easy, and for a new one, too difficult – when what you want is the exact opposite. 🙂 To make it even more difficult for newer players, many of these systems don’t allow you the flexibility to change any mistakes; you have to either continue on with the character or start all over again with a new one. MMORPGs like Asheron’s Call, Anarchy Online and Star Wars Galaxies have begun to implement the ability to undo or change the development of characters in order to allow players the opportunity to correct the direction of development.

The second system, limited development, allows the game designer to maintain some control. Characters created by any type of player should more closely correspond to one another, or at least develop in the proper direction. Unfortunately, players, especially hardcore ones, don’t like to have their freedom limited; it’s therefore necessary to invent additional methods for character development, such as giving additional perks, abilities or skills that do not have too strong an effect on the main elements and fit in with the general direction of its development.

The second question I find very interesting was addressed in the first part of the Roundtable; it concerns how to display character development. Is it important to have an interface screen with statistics, or can this be hidden or replaced with something else? I think the majority of computer RPG fans find the character stat screen an essential part of the game, and the gradual increase of various numerical values extremely valuable. On the other hand, there is a rather engaging project under the name of Progress Quest, in which you can create a character and send him on a never-ending quest for objects and experience. The most a player can do is see his character parameters plus the name of any objects he is wearing or holding, and turn the game off when he grows tired of it. Of course, this is an extreme example, but someone from the 168,000 registered players probably likes this system. 🙂

In my opinion, it’s undesirable to remove any elements that display character statistics, but at the same time, we need to consider that players continually change and that there are those who shrink from large tables of seemingly unintelligible numbers. In this case, we will need to continue to find unique and original ways to provide alternative solutions to the stats sheet. This may be through character objects as in Diablo, or through visualized increases in competence like Gothic, or visually as in Black & White. Whatever method game designers may choose, we’re sure to see the continuing development of RPG stats in various directions, and we will hopefully never derive a definite answer to the question, “Which is the better system, skill-based or class-based” 🙂

Steve Wartofsky
Producer, Dungeon Siege II
Gas Powered Games
While there are definite opinions on both sides of the equation (for stats, against stats; for story, against story, etc.), I really don’t think there’s an either/or “truth” to any of these issues. The important thing is continuity and consistency in your goals and your plans. Clearly, with a solid, advanced, well-developed rules system that a large audience understands behind you (such as AD&D;), you save yourself the immense amount of time you’d otherwise spend reinventing the wheel here.

Well-established conventions lead to well-established expectations, and a continuity of audience, as long as you can provide tangible innovation within the bounds of the known system. Equally clearly, there’s a style of design and play where too much reliance upon designer-developed story, elaborate stats, characterization and structure can intrude unpleasantly upon the player’s focus on the gameplay itself, and get in the way of the player’s interactive identification with and projection into an in-game character.

A different point – there are days when it seems like story, in the traditional sense, and computer gaming will ever be at odds; there are other days when it seems like the optimal link between these two very different dynamics will finally be forged. It’s been a dilemma since Suspended shipped. *g*

Finally, it may be that the conventions of traditional RPG and character development, like the conventions of turn-based strategy gaming, need to be understood as sui generis and therefore sufficient unto themselves. These conventions are not inevitably a set of concepts and systems that can be readily imposed on a real-time environment with any guarantee of success (RTS has struggled with this dilemma since its birth, vis a vis turn-based strategy gaming). Similarly, the conventions of the most successful real-time RPGs (RTRPGs?) seem to be quite disjunct from those that flavor traditional RPGs. We may therefore find the audiences for these two different types of games – like the audiences for turn-based and real-time strategy gaming – will need to be sought (and understood) separately, as well.

Kai Rosenkranz
Audio Designer, Piranha Bytes
Gothic II
Raphael and some others said that CRPGs should not try to copy pen and paper RPGs, and I totally agree with that. Pen and paper RPGs went through decades of evolution and became brilliantly designed for what they are supposed to be – a framework for a journey that mainly takes place in the players’ minds. When five players gather for such an adventure, each one of them has a different image of what’s going on, but at least they speak a common language, math. Ergo, the character development system has to provide rules (or guidelines, rather) and treat the players on an equal basis.

In contrast to that, a CRPG takes place on the screen. Therefore, the players are bound to the gameworld’s rules and limitations anyway. The “math” becomes less important for the players (unfortunately not for the programmers). As Raphael said, you don’t need a value indicating your “discover items” skill. Either the game player discovers an item or not. That depends only on his way to play the game. We could even say it depends on his actual ability to discover items in real life. And is there a better way to achieve identification with the character than to take into account the player’s abilities and weaknesses? If we think through that, we could even say character development is not necessary in CRPGs, as the player has a “character” already.

But as we cannot create a world that offers complete freedom of action, there have to be rules, there have to be dos and don’ts. How can we introduce the game player into the system? As I said in my first statement, we should focus our attention on intuition, transparency and continuity, rather than a huge manual. Intuition means this; when the protagonist finds an armor that looks(!) heavier and better than his own, he intuitively assumes that its protection is better. The more often we fulfill those intuitive expectations, the better. Transparency means the player should be able to understand “how this works” and “why that doesn’t”. If he’s standing next to an NPC trying to pick pockets and nothing happens, that would not be transparent. In the pen and paper world, you would throw dice now or at least look at your skill table. You don’t need that in a CRPG, as you can actually sneak behind the NPC, focus on his bunch of keys, watch his line of vision and then grab the keys. If the protagonist screws up, that is not due to a skill variable, but rather his shaky hands. And, last but not least, continuity is tremendously important as well. Once the player has internalized the system, he should be able to apply it throughout the entire game.

Alexander said that even without a character development system, a game can still be an RPG. As you can see, I support that view. But what is it then that classifies a game as an RPG? In terms of the literal meaning of “role-playing game”, even Duke Nukem would be one, as you slip into the role of Duke Nukem and play as him. One might say it is rich stories that qualify games as RPGs. Actually, I don’t care all that much about genres and their characteristics. In the case of Gothic, some people called it action – adventure, others called it RPG. That’s alright, as long as they are “propelled into an exiting world”. Right, Brent? 🙂

Mike Gallo
Producer, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
LucasArts
There is a broad audience of people out there that play certain RPGs, and a game that gets too bogged down in stats and numbers may scare a lot of people away. So, it is that intricate plot and story that really keep people involved and motivated to get through the game. I would love to see how many people picked up Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and completed it versus the number of people who just playing it for a few hours. I hope that if our work paid off in the ways we intended, the finish rate would be higher than average. So, I don’t know if that directly addresses the story comment made in the initial stage by Jeff Vogel, but I’m emphasizing the point that story, characters and plot can carry ANY game, if they are interesting and engaging.

Regarding Steve Wartofsky’s view that character development is not a measurable, tangible thing in the real world, I think that somewhere, at some time, a type of stat-less main player character development will make it into an RPG. However, in a world of trying to make deadlines, budgets and everything that comes with creating a game, it’s hard to present an entirely new concept and have the ability and foresight to see it through to completion (not to mention the money and backing of the “higher ups”). Oh yeah, and convincing the designers and programmers that the system can work would probably be an even bigger task. Can someone get on this so we can buy the tools and make our game? 🙂

And to Chris Avellone’s desire for players to have choices outside of assigning numbers to their stats, I really like the idea of being able to let the player “do whatever they want, good or evil” etc. This is a difficult thing to balance – how does the design and story account for these things without making two games? However, it’s often difficult during design and development to realize that you have something that pays off in a positive way. You don’t often know if your decisions were correct until everything is finished…

Whether it’s the correct decision or not, this RPG Roundtable on the topic of character development is now finished. We haven’t reached consensus, but that is not our intention. Rather, the objective is to promote an exchange of opinions among some of the talented people who make the games we cover. We thank Chris Avellone, Jeff Vogel, Alexander Mishulin, Steve Wartofsky, Kai Rosenkranz and Mike Gallo for taking part in this open discussion stage, and also the other developers who contributed earlier.